Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

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Rate "The Angels take Manhattan"

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Total Votes : 17

Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by The Co=Ordinator on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:22 pm

Big episode. Farewell Amy and Rory. The end of Series 7a). Your thoughts and votes requested and required!


Last edited by The Co=Ordinator on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:29 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Johnstone McGuckian on Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:56 am

4/5 from me. Very enjoyable but not as good as last weeks. The method of departure was a little bit predictable but didn't ruin anything. I like being able to predict an ending as opposed to a button that we haven't seen before being pushed.
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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Patrick on Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:24 am

I'm going to give this a 4 as well. I thought the atmosphere of the episode was very effective. For me, the issue that nags at me is the conclusion. Okay, I get that between all the criss-crossed time tracks the Angels created in 1938, and the paradox the Ponds created by jumping off the roof, makes that point in time inaccessible to the TARDIS. But we know the TARDIS can go to 1939 (Daleks In Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks). So why can't the Doctor go back to 1939 and bring them back home? Or, 1940? That's a logical inconsistency that mars the drama of Amy & Rory's departure for me.

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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Jennyjenkins on Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:42 am

High 4 from me as well

Lost a point due to the silliness of not being able to read ahead in the book

And also because of Patrick's point
Patrick wrote: For me, the issue that nags at me is the conclusion. Okay, I get that between all the criss-crossed time tracks the Angels created in 1938, and the paradox the Ponds created by jumping off the roof, makes that point in time inaccessible to the TARDIS. But we know the TARDIS can go to 1939 (Daleks In Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks). So why can't the Doctor go back to 1939 and bring them back home? Or, 1940? That's a logical inconsistency that mars the drama of Amy & Rory's departure for me.
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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Dave Webb on Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:17 pm

The thing about Doctor Who is that shonky plot is forgivable if other things are really, really good.

This was really, really good. And I never give fives. The angels were scary again, the setup in Manhattan made them smart, the interplay with the cast was excellent, Moffat's love letter to love, marriage and growing up was strong, affecting and ultimately hopeful.

Plus, true to his word Amy and Rory are dead.

I disagree that time travel mars the end of the story. For one thing, the Doctor spends the episode telling us about messing with established events - and we've had warnings about that ever since Smith and Jones. We've seen what happens when fixed points in time are messed with, we had the Doctor talking about things that are set in stone. I'm happy that the Doctor understands that popping back to free the Ponds would be Bad. And that he's going to move on, allowing them to have the life together that they really want.

In the end, the recognition that they want to be together more than they want to be with him will be the thing that makes the Doctor leave them alone, even if he's capable of rescuing them.

Basically...five.

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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by sparacus on Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:33 pm

4/5 on that scale. It was actually quite clever despite the rushed first 20 mins.
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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Zoltar on Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:26 pm

4/5 from me as well. I thought the Weeping Angel cherubs were creepy and fun, a good addition. There were things that didn't work for me here and there, but it was a very good episode regardless.

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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Aspadistra on Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:46 pm

Four from me.


The River/Doctor marriage is now confirmed as genuine. Huzzah!
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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by konstantin on Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:40 pm

and didn't we get confirmation that there's only one cycle path in the tardis? how cool is that?


(my only hesitation is that the ending feels just a bit too real to me -- sigh - so much for light diversion... great stuff tho)

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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Nick Barlow on Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:13 am

I went with 4/5 - like last week, there were some good bits in there, but there are some huge gaping holes in the plot. While the Doctor tears out the last page, I suspect Moffat reads it first, and this felt like an episode where he'd worked out the last ten minutes and then everything else was just making sure it got there, regardless of how much sense it made.

I'm not going to go on forever, but two things that are bugging me: first, Moffat not playing by his own rules. Suddenly, the Doctor can't change anything that he knows is going to happen, which goes against various other things Moffat has written (especially A Christmas Carol). So, is he playing by the 'no interference in fixed points' rule in future episodes, or not?

Second: oh no, the TARDIS can't go back to New York again, which is horrible as Amy and Rory can't leave the city because of... um, actually, they can. So why isn't the afterword 'Having a nice break in 1930s New York, see you in Los Angeles next year' or similar? It bugs me because it wouldn't be hard to get it right, just a line or two to say they have to stay in the city till they dies or the Angels awaken again, but as it is it doesn't seem to work. (And it can't be that a victim of the Angels can't be rescued, otherwise the Doctor and Martha would still be in 1969)

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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Zoltar on Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:50 am

My thoughts on the matter of the Ponds being lost forever in the past are as follows: The Doctor knows he doesn't save them and the matter becomes a fixed point because, if he had saved them, they'd never be buried in New York. They'd live out their lives at their actual home or on adventures with him and die somewhere else. He wouldn't save them, and then bring them back to New York just before they died and make sure the tombstone still existed. So his seeing the grave means "I never rescue them, we never meet in Los Angeles, etc" to him. If this is indeed what Moffat intended, he could've presented it better.

I agree with the show wobbling on whether one can mess with fixed points or not. At the moment, I'm not convinced this isn't a placeholder ending that they will get around at some future point. Perhaps they simply fake the tombstone or some other timey wimey thing and the Ponds make a surprise return and retire to a different fate. There was a point where Rose was never ever coming back too, and she did anyway.

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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Dave Webb on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:59 am

I feel like I want to defend this story, and I shouldn't because the last thing it needs is someone whiteknighting when most people are giving it 4/5.

It's worth noting, though, that Nick is absolutely right: Moffat read the last page before he wrote the rest of the story. What we're missing is when we saw that last page ourselves.

Can anyone remember the Doctor visiting Amelia out of sequence? There was a shot of her in the garden, sat on a suitcase, perking up at the sound of the TARDIS, and it didn't seem to fit with the rest of the story. But I can't remember whether it happens in The Eleventh Hour, or the Pandorica two parter. If I've got my Timey-Wimey right, the end shot of The Angels Take Manhattan is the second time we've seen that moment.

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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Zoltar on Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:39 pm

Dave Webb wrote:Can anyone remember the Doctor visiting Amelia out of sequence? There was a shot of her in the garden, sat on a suitcase, perking up at the sound of the TARDIS, and it didn't seem to fit with the rest of the story. But I can't remember whether it happens in The Eleventh Hour, or the Pandorica two parter. If I've got my Timey-Wimey right, the end shot of The Angels Take Manhattan is the second time we've seen that moment.
I think it was The Eleventh Hour.

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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by The Browncoat Cat on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:57 pm

I think Amy knew the Doctor would never stop dropping in to see them and take them on trips. She also knew that she has to call a halt to her travels with the Doctor and get on with her life, but would never have the courage to tell the Doctor to leave her alone now and let her grow up. The Doctor in this current incarnation is like a terribly damaged child who just can't take another betrayal by an adult and has become over clingy. Being sent back to Rory by the Angel is like arranging it so the clingy child will move on and make new friends without feeling betrayed by the adult it idolized.
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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Dave Webb on Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:23 pm

The Browncoat Cat wrote:The Doctor in this current incarnation is like a terribly damaged child who just can't take another betrayal by an adult and has become over clingy.

Don't see it.

Do see a Peter Pan figure who doesn't want Wendy to leave the nursery. Do see a "cool parent" figure who can't quite get used to the kids leaving home. Do see someone who, finally, has a friend with no romantic interest in him that he can genuinely have fun with.

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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Dingdongalistic on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:29 am

If you read the Doctor's comment about "the timelines are too scrambled" as referring to Amy and Rory's personal timelines, the plot point about him being unable to go back and rescue them does make a little more sense.

4/5 from me (8.5/10, using my preferred system). "Minor classic" status.
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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Dingdongalistic on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:29 am

Incidentally, this has been the best half-season I've ever seen -- not one episode have I felt to be anything below good.

Maybe the reason's that beyond the characters, there was no overarching storyline.
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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Patrick on Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:47 pm

A Post-Script to The Angels Take Manhattan...


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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Starfighter Pilot on Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:20 pm

That's a super coda. I wish they'd filmed it, but it works really well with the drawings and Arthur's narration.
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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Aspadistra on Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:56 pm

Thanks for posting this. *sniff*
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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Post by Patrick on Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:23 am

I should have warned everyone... that "PS" packs quite an emotional whollop.

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Re: Rate "The Angels Take Manhattan"

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