The last years of the classic series

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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Colin Hicks on Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:27 am

Without wishing to drift too far off-topic (I still have the injuries from the last time Wink), I think the one major thing the old series did wrong in its last days was to carry on reinforcing the negative public image of it; when it was being derided for having silly-looking monsters and casting the wrong people, perhaps Ken Dodd, Hale and Pace and the Kandyman weren't the best way to go...

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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Johnstone McGuckian on Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:28 am

Now that's a fair point.
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Colin Hicks on Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:32 am

I liked this so much I decided to split the thread Very Happy.

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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Johnstone McGuckian on Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:44 am

Good move. And I think it is an interesting point. Now, while I know a lot of people don't like stories such as Delta and the Bannermen and Battlefield I think that they're really good. I do sometimes wonder if people judge the last 3 seasons of Cassic WHO a bit harshly. Although perhaps that's an effect of living through it and watching the quality of the series decline at the time. I can admit there was some decline in general quality but I think it's made up for in other aspects.
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Colin Hicks on Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:49 am

I think there was a lot of really good ideas at the heart of the McCoy stories, but the script-editing and the production values let them down. Most of the stories are very poorly plotted, and they look so cheap.

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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Johnstone McGuckian on Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:54 am

I've never considered the McCoy stories to look cheap. Not when compared to stuff like the polystyrene in Revelation of the Daleks. And I don't think the Kandyman looks too bad when compared with Magma Creatures and Giant Rats, it's characterisation that lets him down for me (and perhaps the general character concept)
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Graymalkin on Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:57 am

The last two seasons are the highpoint of '80s Who* for me - despite McCoy's rather lacklustre performance (and the frankly risible 'So Not' Ace) there are some quite interesting ideas and concepts**.

Some of which manage to avoid Cartmel's hack-and-paste editing approach long enough to be hinted at on-screen...

And I'd certainly watch anything from season 24 over anything from season 18***...


*'The Caves of Androzani' and 'Kinda' excepted, of course...

**Nowhere near as interesting or intelligent as some internet fans claim, mind...

***With the possible exception of 'State of Decay'...
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Johnstone McGuckian on Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:00 am

Interestingly Gray, season 18 is the only 80's season I'd call better than 25 or 26.
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Graymalkin on Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:07 am

Johnstone McGuckian wrote:Interestingly Gray, season 18 is the only 80's season I'd call better than 25 or 26.

Which is entirely fair enough - personally I'd rate it as the worst season of Doctor Who by a long chalk*. Frankly, I'm not even convinced it's actually Doctor Who**. But I suspect the show was in no way being made for me at that point...


*Or 'an excessive extrusion of calcite' as season 18 would probably have it...

**The diametric opposite of Christopher F Bidmead's opinion, of course***...

***Which is about as close to a guarantee of being right as you can get...
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Johnstone McGuckian on Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:09 am

A very good point. I'd agree that it was the least WHO-like season of them all and I think it's that difference that I like. I'm not a big Bidmead fan though.
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Graymalkin on Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:15 am

As we've said so many times, of course, the great thing about Who is that if you don't like one creative team's approach, another'll be along in a minute to do it differently...
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Johnstone McGuckian on Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:17 am

That, is indeed, one of the show's greatest aspects. Although I've never been totally against a production team. Every team has had it's classics.
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Rich Flair on Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:51 am

Johnstone McGuckian wrote:That, is indeed, one of the show's greatest aspects. Although I've never been totally against a production team. Every team has had it's classics.

I think series 23 to 26 have no classics, just an embarrassing mess of over lit, tinselly decorated nonsense. I could probably watch Delta again, but that's it.
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by The Browncoat Cat on Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:03 am

I think that Doctor Who in the late '80's suffered from a combination of lack of interest from BBC management, a Producer who really didn't want to be there any more and three Script Editors on the trot who failled to undersand/didn't have a clue what Doctor Who was all about. Any one of these factors could be worked around singly, to have them all together was tragic.
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Dave Webb on Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:49 am

The Browncoat Cat wrote:I think that Doctor Who in the late '80's suffered from a combination of lack of interest from BBC management, a Producer who really didn't want to be there any more and three Script Editors on the trot who failled to undersand/didn't have a clue what Doctor Who was all about.

I could agree with you if you hadn't written off Cartmel. Cartmel invented Doctor Who for the 21st century. I'd say more, but I think that's going in an article for CT. Funny how inspiration strikes.

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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Beatly on Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:33 pm

I know I'm largely alone in this opinion, but I (genuinely!) think that the show barely put a foot wrong during its last few years. It's no doubt something to do with the fact that the sixth and seventh Doctors were my Doctors, as that was when I was watching it, but on further viewing in more recent years, I can identify only one actual dud: the ambitiously-titled The Greatest Show In The Galaxy. Everything else from Messrs C. Baker and McCoy is just fantastic, in my opinion, and an awful lot of fun. Smile
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Aspadistra on Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:04 pm

I'm ashamed to say that I've never watched the McCoy era. Quite simply, I was hard up and didn't have a television then.

I must remedy my Mcoylessness soon.
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by The Co=Ordinator on Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:59 pm

Season 22. A mixed bag but overall not too bad, finishing on a real high with Revelation
Season 23. OK to start, brilliant Mindwarp, then it fell apart.
Season 24. Dire, with the notable exception of the quirky Delta.
Season 25. A big pick up from 24, with Silver Nemesis being the only clunker.
Season 26. No wonder the show didn't come back after this........

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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by The Browncoat Cat on Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:14 pm

Dave Webb wrote:
The Browncoat Cat wrote:I think that Doctor Who in the late '80's suffered from a combination of lack of interest from BBC management, a Producer who really didn't want to be there any more and three Script Editors on the trot who failled to undersand/didn't have a clue what Doctor Who was all about.

I could agree with you if you hadn't written off Cartmel. Cartmel invented Doctor Who for the 21st century. I'd say more, but I think that's going in an article for CT. Funny how inspiration strikes.
I honestly don't think that Andrew Cartmel had the first clue what he was doing whilst working on Doctor . His idea of making the Doctor's character more mysterious made him more and more obscure and less and less likeable. Not that he had any clue about character development, as he freely admitted there never was a "Cartmel Masterplan" in his time as Script Editor. Running two identical stories within a month of each other as he did with Remembrance of the Daleks and Silver Nemesis, was unforgivable, even the most harrassed person working to against the clock should have noticed that. All in all, he let JN-T and Gary Downie walk all over him.
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Dave Webb on Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:52 pm

The Cartmel Masterplan was the name fandom gave his overall direction. So of course there wasn't.

Remembrance and Silver Nemesis aren't identical (especially since Nemesis is awful, and Remembrance isn't). The character of The Doctor is closer to Hartnell than at any other time in his portrayal and a great deal more likeable than either of the Bakers.

But, as I said upthread, read all about it in CT. Available soon from your local DWAS. </endplug>

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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by The Co=Ordinator on Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:09 am

I, for one, am looking forward to reading all about it!

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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by stanmore on Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:32 am

I don't think you can say that Cartmel was walked over - whatever you think of seasons 25/26, it's obvious that they are unique in the classic series - indeed, they introduce things that JNT never looked particularly interested in the time that he'd been producer (Or in terms of the discovering the backstory of the companion, something that he seemed to be disinterested in).
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by codywillis1 on Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:12 am

I think the McCoy era is fantastic, and anyone who prefers the risible current rubbish needs a brain wash.

But that's just me.
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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by Colin Hicks on Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:20 am

codywillis1 wrote:I think the McCoy era is fantastic, and anyone who prefers the risible current rubbish needs a brain wash.

But that's just me.

And aspersions as to the mental faculties of anyone who disagrees with you are strongly discouraged.

But that's just me.

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Re: The last years of the classic series

Post by The Co=Ordinator on Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:54 am

codywillis1 wrote:I think the McCoy era is fantastic, and anyone who prefers the risible current rubbish needs a brain wash.

*gets brain wash*

Worst era of Doctor Who ever. That's why it finished in December 1989.

But that's just me. Wink

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