Rate the JNT era

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How do you rate the JNT era?

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Rate the JNT era

Post by Johnstone McGuckian on Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:01 am

How do you rate this era?


Last edited by Johnstone on Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Sid Seadevil on Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:30 am

I'm uncertain you can rate an entire long-running era in this way. Some parts of it warrant a 5 while others a far lower score. Added to which since it's not uniform, the 5's and the lower scoring stories can come in a very jumbled up sequence.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Patrick on Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:47 am

Sid Seadevil wrote:I'm uncertain you can rate an entire long-running era in this way. Some parts of it warrant a 5 while others a far lower score. Added to which since it's not uniform, the 5's and the lower scoring stories can come in a very jumbled up sequence.

Add to this that this particular era encompasses the final season for Tom Baker, and three other actors to play the title part, plus three different script editors, and an apparently souring relationship between the production team and the higher-ups at the BBC. Rating all nine years of the JNT era becomes a tall order.

I'll break it down like this:

Seasons 18-21:
A true break from the Williams era that preceded it, stylistically, and an admirable effort to keep the show fresh when you consider that one of the first orders of business JNT had to deal with was replacing the actor playing the title role for seven years. On screen, I think it worked, even if each season included a klunker of an episode or two. I'll give it a 3.5/5.

Seasons 22-23:
Not a reflection of the actor playing the Doctor during this period, but the characterization of the sixth Doctor was never truly made clear to me. Why wear that outfit and be so bullying to his companion? Add to this the format changes (some of which were forced on the production), and you get perhaps the least consistent part of the JNT era, quality-wise. I can't give these seasons better than 2/5.

Seasons 24-26:
A bit of a redemption, but you come away from it feeling like it was too little, too late. You did get some amazing stories in these final seasons of the JNT era, but by this point, the show and its traditional audience had parted company. 2.5/5

If I were to average these, I'd have to give the JNT era 2.5/5, which seems unfairly low for all he did for the show.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Sid Seadevil on Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:57 am

Patrick wrote:Add to this that this particular era encompasses the final season for Tom Baker, and three other actors to play the title part, plus three different script editors, and an apparently souring relationship between the production team and the higher-ups at the BBC. Rating all nine years of the JNT era becomes a tall order.

I'll break it down like this:...If I were to average these, I'd have to give the JNT era 2.5/5, which seems unfairly low for all he did for the show.
Bravo, matey. That's about as comprehensive a way to approach the problem as it's possible to get.

Well done.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Johnstone McGuckian on Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:24 am

I've given it a 4. While it did have a few clunkers more than 80% of it was good.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Sid Seadevil on Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:26 am

Johnstone wrote:I've given it a 4. While it did have a few clunkers more than 80% of it was good.
Ohhhhhh...I rather think 80% might be just a tad over generous, youngster.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Patrick on Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:35 am

Johnstone wrote:I've given it a 4. While it did have a few clunkers more than 80% of it was good.

I'm curious to hear more, Johnstone. Can you expand on this a little and tell me the 20% you think was not good? Like Sid, I think that 20% margin may be a little small.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Johnstone McGuckian on Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:45 am

Off the top of my head the only JNT produced stories I don't like are:

Time Flight
Terminus
The Kings Deamons
The Twin Dilemma
Vengence on Varos
Timelash
Mindwarp
Dragonfire
Ghost Light (which I like more than any others on this list)
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Patrick on Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:53 am

Johnstone wrote:Off the top of my head the only JNT produced stories I don't like are:

Time Flight
Terminus
The Kings Deamons
The Twin Dilemma
Vengence on Varos
Timelash
Mindwarp
Dragonfire
Ghost Light (which I like more than any others on this list)

Personall, I'd take Vengence on Varos and Ghostlight off that list. But I'd add quite a few more:

Meglos
Four to Doomsday
Arc of Infinity
Warriors of the Deep
Resurrection of the Daleks
Attack of the Cybermen
Almost all of Trial of a Time Lord
Delta & The Bannermen
The Happiness Patrol
Silver Nemesis (given that it struck me as themeatically too close to Remembrance of the Daleks)
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by The Co=Ordinator on Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:03 pm

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Exclude McCoy and it's 4/5, including it just 3.

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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by barnaby morbius on Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:20 am

must be the most inconsistent. veering from great to abysmal(sometimes in the same story)

encouraged me to become a fan but also made me stop watching.

went for 4 but this doesn't tell the whole story.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Sid Seadevil on Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:28 am

Patrick wrote:Personall, I'd take Vengence on Varos and Ghostlight off that list. But I'd add quite a few more:

Meglos
Four to Doomsday
Arc of Infinity
Warriors of the Deep
Resurrection of the Daleks
Attack of the Cybermen
Almost all of Trial of a Time Lord
Delta & The Bannermen
The Happiness Patrol
Silver Nemesis (given that it struck me as themeatically too close to Remembrance of the Daleks)
I'd pretty much go with this selection. The inconsistency of style and tone could be quite breath-taking in its rapid succession sometimes.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Colin Hicks on Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:30 am

The only one of that list I'd be remotely inclined to be kind to is Warriors of the Deep, if only because it must have looked good on paper, and with the two weeks prep time it lost, it probably would have been not so bad.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Lee Carey on Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:50 pm

3/5
My views on this era are pretty well summed up by Patrick's well written and learned post- it's probably my least favourite period in the shows history. With all apologies to those that like it, at best I can appreciate some of the ideas and stories in this period, but find it very difficult to love much of it.

Highlights include:
Full Circle
State of Decay
Warrior's Gate (A masterpiece, in my opinion)
Castrovalva
Kinda
Snakedance
Caves of Androzani
Revelation of the Daleks
Rememberence of the Daleks
and Curse of Fenric
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by stanmore on Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:20 pm

The Co=Ordinator wrote:It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Exclude McCoy and it's 4/5, including it just 3.

See, Co=Ordinator, me and you are different people (in case you hadn't guessed). Exclude McCoy it's 2.5/5, include him (and his last two seasons) it's a solid 2.8/5.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by The Co=Ordinator on Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:31 pm

We'll it's pleasing to know that you're not my alter ego stan! Very Happy

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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Patrick on Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:40 pm

Lee Carey wrote:3/5
My views on this era are pretty well summed up by Patrick's well written and learned post- it's probably my least favourite period in the shows history. With all apologies to those that like it, at best I can appreciate some of the ideas and stories in this period, but find it very difficult to love much of it.

Highlights include:
Full Circle
State of Decay
Warrior's Gate (A masterpiece, in my opinion)
Castrovalva
Kinda
Snakedance
Caves of Androzani
Revelation of the Daleks
Rememberence of the Daleks
and Curse of Fenric

Very kind of you to say, Lee. And can I take from this that you plan to acquire the E-Space trilogy upon release? Like you, I found Warrior's Gate a fascinating story- a fairly linear plot that deliberately tried to make you think it was non-linear.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Matthew Kilburn on Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:49 pm

I don't think I can give a mark to the entire JN-T era - it changes so much, depending who is on his team. The script editors made huge contributions: Bidmead is different from Root, and from Saward (who has two phases really - before he met Robert Holmes, and after he met Robert Holmes). Andrew Cartmel is different again, and changes his ideas between completing season 24 and starting work on season 25. Then there are the different regular cast members, where JN-T makes it up as he goes along...

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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Dave Webb on Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:17 pm

Patrick wrote:
Very kind of you to say, Lee. And can I take from this that you plan to acquire the E-Space trilogy upon release? Like you, I found Warrior's Gate a fascinating story- a fairly linear plot that deliberately tried to make you think it was non-linear.

You're being far too kind to a jumbled mess of a story that seems cleverer than it is.

Wink

The Nathan Turner era holds some absolute corkers of stories, though, and the entire runs of three Doctors. There were bound to be some that were more successful than others. I can forgive Gate because I get State of Decay, and I wouldn't be without Black Orchid or Kinda or Snakedance, or Androzani, or a round dozen others.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Patrick on Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:53 pm

Dave Webb wrote:You're being far too kind to a jumbled mess of a story that seems cleverer than it is.

Wink

Dave, when I posted my response to Lee, I knew, for a certainty, that you would be here shortly to tell me and Lee how wrong we are for liking Warriors Gate. Isn't that the greatness of this show, though? Lee and I see something in a particular episode, and find a fondness for it. You don't, but find plenty of other stuff in other stories. And yet, as you said in the Lambert era thread, here we all are.

God bless Doctor Who, and everyone who's ever been associated with it.
Smile
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Sid Seadevil on Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:48 pm

Patrick wrote:God bless Doctor Who, and everyone who's ever been associated with it.
Smile
Even down to including me...? Twisted Evil

AS for Gate, I agree with Dave.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Lee Carey on Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:20 am

Not often I disagree with David and Sid!

The thing that makes Warrior's Gate for me isn't the sophistication of its storytelling style* but its characterisation**. The crew of the Privateer are presented as totally realistic- bored, jealous, jobsworths and the like, and the evil of their crimes (slavery) is presented as something utterly banal, which makes it all the more shocking. This is a simple day in the office for them, the gate and the Doctor another problem for them to fix like a broken photocopier. Rorvik is one of the best villains ever portrayed in the series- he isn't a power crazed lunatic, or a genius on the verge of death out for revenge against the universe, but a member of middle management whose greatest concern is about the amount of respect he feels he never gets from his team.

Warrior's Gate is, in many ways a Dr Who prototype for the Office, and I've worked for several Rorvik's over the years. It also benefits from some of the best direction ever seen in the series, as well as some great art direction. It is very much of its time, and definitely amongst my all time top ten Dr Who stories.


*Which is basically to give you all the clues needed for understanding it, but not to hold the hand of the viewer while doing so- it's rather like Ghostlight in that respect.
**Something that Ghostlight fails at, and therefore fails as a story, in my opinion.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Dave Webb on Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:15 pm

Patrick wrote:Dave, when I posted my response to Lee, I knew, for a certainty, that you would be here shortly to tell me and Lee how wrong we are for liking Warriors Gate. Isn't that the greatness of this show, though? Lee and I see something in a particular episode, and find a fondness for it. You don't, but find plenty of other stuff in other stories. And yet, as you said in the Lambert era thread, here we all are.

God bless Doctor Who, and everyone who's ever been associated with it.
Smile

I don't think you're wrong for liking it. I can go into why I think that in another thread.

It's one of those stories that Doctor Who does from time to time; the ones where if you put four people on a sofa three of them will spend the time pointing out all the bits they love and one of them will look at the other three like they've gone mad. The conversation will then rapidly move on to how it's nothing at all like "Robots of Death" and whether or not they really do re-use a set from an Adam and the Ants video.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by Frank on Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:14 am

stanmore wrote:
The Co=Ordinator wrote:It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Exclude McCoy and it's 4/5, including it just 3.

See, Co=Ordinator, me and you are different people (in case you hadn't guessed). Exclude McCoy it's 2.5/5, include him (and his last two seasons) it's a solid 2.8/5.

Include McCoy and for me it's a solid 3.8/5. The last two McCoy seasons are on the whole rather bloody good and make up for much of the terrible nonsense between Seasons 21 and 23.
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Re: Rate the JNT era

Post by sheringham on Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:19 am

I really like most of the JNT era. I gave it a 4 - the one mark it lost was for Slyv.


Let's face it - I jusst love Doctor Who. I am the Baysan Tulu of Outpost Wrinkly. Embarassed
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