Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

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Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by The Co=Ordinator on Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:53 am

It's the end - and a new beginning. Rate Tennant's final farewll, and rate it as well!


Last edited by The Co=Ordinator on Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:00 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by The Co=Ordinator on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:07 pm

Sorry to say that, right now, I'm distinctly underwhelmed. Sad

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by ifjsrussell on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:39 pm

Enjoyed it... but need to watch again! Did think it quite funny that we never did get to find out who "The Lady in White" was... I bet RTD did that on purpose coz he knew we would be talking about it for years to come Smile
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by barnaby morbius on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:40 pm

i thought it was splendid.

but more importantly, the preview for the next series looks great!
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Lucy McGough on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:56 pm

What preview?
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Aspadistra on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:57 pm

Yeah. I waited for one, but didn't see any...

*is confuzzled*
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Lucy McGough on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:59 pm

*is Aspa's partner in confuzzlement*
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by The Co=Ordinator on Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:02 pm

It's on the BBC wesbite & was shown after Eastenders.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Aspadistra on Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:11 pm

Ah. Thank you, sir.
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by barnaby morbius on Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:14 pm

it looks great!
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Nick Barlow on Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:37 pm

I thought it was great and a fantastic ending to the Tennant/RTD era - and if you'd had told me a few months ago that the series would feature Rassilon, I'd have screamed 'fanwank!'

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Lucy McGough on Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:49 pm

I was doubtful about Matt Smith, but I was pleasantly surprised.
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Zoltar on Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:54 am

ifjsrussell wrote:Enjoyed it... but need to watch again! Did think it quite funny that we never did get to find out who "The Lady in White" was... I bet RTD did that on purpose coz he knew we would be talking about it for years to come Smile
After Wilf asked who she was, the way the Doctor looked at Sylvia and then Donna - mother and child - seemed to me to be confirmation of her identity.

I thought it was an excellent conclusion. And I'll certainly miss DT. Smile

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Aspadistra on Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:25 am

I feel mean saying this, but I expected more. Surprised

I can't write for toffee - I know that - so I have a cheek commenting, but I found the answer to the 'He will knock four times,' conundrum disappointing.

(Yes, I get that it allows the Doc to redeem himself for his behaviour in W of M, and so on, but...)

I liked the Verity Newman scene - though that actually some questions for me; the Luke and Sarah Jane scene was a nice one for the youngsters; liked Captain Jack and Alonso; not sure about Smith and Jones.
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Dave Webb on Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:56 am

It tried to do too much, and then spent too long on 10's exit when it could have used that time to greater effect sorting out the plot which had been built up from the previous episode.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Lucy McGough on Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:17 am

The Doctor gave Donna a winning lottery ticket. He wouldn't have done that for anyone else. She really was his best friend.

I read somewhere that Martha's previous fiancé might have died when the Daleks stole Earth, which sounds plausible. One word: rebound. But there's no reason why people shouldn't be happy with people who aren't the people they originally wanted. IYSWIM. Lots of life is about making do.

And, of course, Martha isn't who Mickey originally wanted either.

In the trailer for the new series Eleven was shown kissing Amy. I strongly disapprove. There should be a moratorium on new kissing and the Doctor should only kiss people he has kissed previously, like Jack or his own legs.
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by barnaby morbius on Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:23 am

did i mention that the new preview looks great?
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Nick Barlow on Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:59 am

Dave Webb wrote:It tried to do too much, and then spent too long on 10's exit when it could have used that time to greater effect sorting out the plot which had been built up from the previous episode.
I think it did that, but it was all about misdirection on RTD's part. On the surface, there's a series of escalating crises - the Master returns, then he's going to team up with Naismith, then he's supplanting Naismith, then he's replacing the population of Earth with himself, which is all part of a plan by Rassilon to escape the end of the Time War...and none of that matters, because the story is about how the Doctor is willing to sacrifice himself to let one old soldier live.

It's the same trick Holmes pulled with Androzani - there's loads of plot going on all around, but the story is about what the Doctor will do to save the life of Peri, who he's only just met.

And that's why the 'reward' scenes are important - he's dying and given his chance to have a dying man's wish (and the idea that it takes him time to die after a lethal dose of radiation is borrowed from Planet of the Spiders), what does he do? He takes his chance to be the Time Lord Victorious and change bits of history. He saves Martha and Luke (and who knows what their deaths would do to Mickey and Sarah Jane), puts Jack back on the right path and apologises for messing up someone's life before finally, at the last moment, taking a moment for himself and seeing Rose again.

And I think this is getting to the point Davies is trying to make - regeneration isn't just something run-of-the-mill, it's death. This is the story of a dying man, trying to rage against the end of the light and do what he can before he goes, because while the guy bouncing around kissing his legs might be 'the Doctor', the man he was minutes before has gone forever.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Dave Webb on Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:55 am

Nick Barlow wrote:
I think it did that, but it was all about misdirection on RTD's part.

Then I wish he had spent less time misdirecting us and more time telling whichever story it was he really wanted to tell. I got the feeling that what he wanted to put on screen was, as you say, a bit of a meditation on life and death, and dying, instead of which we have a lot of gubbins about The Master and Time Lords and the hell of the Time War. Or we could have had that, and a glorious exit for 10 saving the world at the cost of himself, but instead we got a bit of both and not enough of either.

Nick Barlow wrote:and none of that matters, because the story is about how the Doctor is willing to sacrifice himself to let one old soldier live.

I saw something different. I think we might have called this "Fate and Fatality", because there's the line about how Wilf has always been there, waiting. This means that the Doctor's course is fixed and there's never anything he can do to avoid his end; it's all predestination - which sucks, because it goes against all the things that the Doctor seems to say about making a difference, all the things that RTD seems to have been saying about ordinary people being important and vital; it's solid Who for the Doctor to give himself to save one ordinary person, and to atone for his arrogance and hubris by sacrificing himself - it's no less than what the show expects from ordinary humans, after all, but predestination and prophecy annoy the shirt out of me as plot devices.

Nick Barlow wrote:It's the same trick Holmes pulled with Androzani - there's loads of plot going on all around, but the story is about what the Doctor will do to save the life of Peri, who he's only just met.

I disagree; primarily because the Doctor chooses to put Peri's life before his own and accepts that as his responsibility but the 10th Doctor his being herded to his doom; this is far more Logopolis than Androzani (at least for me). It's still not a bad story, it's just not quite all there.

Nick Barlow wrote:And that's why the 'reward' scenes are important

I also have the feeling that we won't be seeing any of those characters again. That wasn't just 10 saying goodbye to them, we were too. Apart from SJS, who has her own series.

Nick Barlow wrote:And I think this is getting to the point Davies is trying to make - regeneration isn't just something run-of-the-mill, it's death. This is the story of a dying man, trying to rage against the end of the light and do what he can before he goes, because while the guy bouncing around kissing his legs might be 'the Doctor', the man he was minutes before has gone forever.

He says as much. I think perhaps this hinges on what your interpretation of "raging against the dying of the light" means. It was brave of the team to show him actually angry at the prospect of death. It was also good to see the Doctor behaving selfishly, which makes his eventual self sacrifice an act of selflessness. And it echoes the end of legends like Beowulf, where the hero knows what his doom is but not exactly how it will come. I think I could have done with much more of that and rather less Timothy Dalton and the Last Minute Plot of Rassilon.

On the plus side, it was nice of Uncle Rusty to throw in more Fan Fodder. The mysterious lady: The Doctor's Mum? Romana? Lady Flavia? I don't care. It was like the Doctor's recitation of the horrors of the Time War (I can hear him saying "There you go, fic writers! More toys! Hooray!", which does rather make him the most generous script editor ever), it was stuff for the fans to chew on and speculate over while we wait for The Moff to set his stamp on the show.

Much as I didn't think this was the epic story that it was trying to be, I have to admit my views might be coloured by a certain amount of fannish grief. I have thoroughly enjoyed 2005-2010, and have been thoroughly spoiled by the general excellence of the shows we've been treated to. Like the 10th Doctor, I was in no hurry for the party to end, and like him (and perhaps also like the lead actor, and the show runner, who both know that to stay with the title might be career suicide and have made the wise decision to move on before it all gets a bit like a day-job) I don't want to go.

That said, yes...the trailer for 2010's run with M. Smith as The Doctor does look promising and if I'm honest, there's some definite glee about the line "lots of fingers" and quiet confidence about his ability to handle the part. I think the future's bright, but I will miss RTD and Tennant.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by stanmore on Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:53 am

What would you have done to change it Webbo?
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Lucy McGough on Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:07 am

He would have done it BETTER! Very Happy
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Patrick on Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:37 am

For whatever it's worth, here are my thoughts on The End of Time Ten:

It's been said there are five stages of Grief: Denial, Bargaining, Sadness, Anger and Acceptance. And there is no greater grief you can heap upon someone than to tell them they are about to die.

The Doctor got this news at the very end of Planet of the Dead. With "he will knock four times," the Doctor knew his end was approaching.

Forward to The Waters of Mars. The Doctor is confronted with a fixed point in time and space, and the knowledge that he can do nothing to save the doomed Mars Pioneers at Bowie Base One. This mirrors his own forthcoming end- it also is fixed and immoveable. Here is where he truly begins to experience the grief process: he walks back to the base after the escape rocket is destroyed, and tells Adelaide and the remaining crew that he can save them. He is attempting to not just deny their fates, but his own as well. Denial phase, part 1.

And then he goes slightly mad. "I always thought I was just the survivor. But I'm more than that, I'm the winner. I can make the laws of time bend to my will." (Or words to that effect- I can't recall the exact lines of dialogue.) That is the Doctor's form of bargaining: re-interpreting a fixed point in time and space to be something he alone can make unfixed. And the results are disasterous, on a personal level- poor Adelaide.

Then he gets an unexpected vision of Ood Sigma, and the cloister bell sounds. What does he do? He goes off on a fun spree, saving galaxies, courting English royalty, etc. Let's call that Denial Phase, Part 2. Finally, he arrives at the Ood Sphere.

From the moment he gets the news the Master is back, he's off to Earth. And he and Wilf have a good conversation about regeneration equalling death for the current inhabitant of the body. Tennant's Doctor sheds tears, and shows a bit of fear about that. There's your Sadness Phase.

Finally, after consigning Gallifrey to it's time locked-status, and once again being the lone survivor of events, he hears those four knocks. The prophecy has fulfilled itself, and he knows what he has to do to save Wilf. This is when he experiences the Anger Phase, as he rants about it not being fair.

And then the deed is done. He's absorbed all that radiation (which, considering he did something similar in Smith & Jones, is pretty odd. Of course, they are different kinds of radiation.) As soon as his scratches and cuts magically heal themselves, he knows he's on borrowed time. Acceptance is his 'reward.' And part of that acceptance is getting the chance to say goodbye to all those companions of his one last time.

In deconstructing all of the 2009 Specials this way (and perhaps even include The Next Doctor, where the Tenth Doctor had to examine the possibility that he was looking at his future self), and examine them as points along the grief process, for me, this particular regeneration had a lot of Logopolis qualities to it.

I say that because the presence of the Watcher in Logopolis served the same dramatic purpose "he will knock four times" did: it forecast that the end of Tom's Doctor was at hand. Even in a story that dealt more with the idea that entropy equated to death, you can still pin-point moments where Tom's Doctor also went through this grief process, too.

The reason I don't believe it 'felt' like "Androzani" is that you got no sense that Davison's Doctor was going through these same points in the grief process. "Androzani" was a deconstruction of the various forms greed can take, and even the Doctor wasn't immune: he admits that his own curiosity got him into the situation. The only true innocent in that story was Peri, and it was the Doctor's guilt over having gotten her into that situation that led to his sacrifice in order to save her.

An iconic ending for a truly iconic Doctor. "I don't want to go." We didn't want you to go, either David. Or Russell. Or Julie. But thank you. It's been an amazing five years. Well done!

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Lucy McGough on Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:44 am

He falls from a speeding salvage ship through a glass roof onto a stone floor and he's fine, but a wee bit of radiation makes him hop the twig even though he played with röntgen bricks in the nursery.

Was the Naismith mansion one of the locations they used for Silence in the Library?
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Patrick on Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Lucy McGough wrote:He falls from a speeding salvage ship through a glass roof onto a stone floor and he's fine, but a wee bit of radiation makes him hop the twig even though he played with röntgen bricks in the nursery.

The fall clearly weakened him. Look how long it took him to be able to stand up again. That, coupled with the fact that this was a different kind of radiation to X-Rays may have been the tipping point.

Lucy McGough wrote:Was the Naismith mansion one of the locations they used for Silence in the Library?

I was under the impression that they found a library in Swansea that had just recently closed, and used that for the Silence 2 parter.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Nick Barlow on Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:25 pm

I do like it when someone sums up a lot of my thoughts without having to write them down. Even when that someone is an elephant: http://millenniumelephant.blogspot.com/2010/01/day-3288-doctor-who-end-of-ten-part-two.html

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