Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Dave Webb on Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:55 pm

stanmore wrote:What would you have done to change it Webbo?

I'll have a think and get back to you.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by The Co=Ordinator on Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:23 pm

I'm getting more wee off with TEOT Part Two by the day. Sorry. Sad

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Lucy McGough on Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:27 pm

Please tell us your thoughts.
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by The Co=Ordinator on Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:13 pm

So many things were wrong.

Why had the Ood developed so quickly? The return of the Time Lords was a hugely wasted opportunity. Who was the second one with face covered? No back story to Neon. The return of 6.7 billion Masters to what they were (all in the same place) by the wave of a metal glove. A diamond travelling from the time war to just outside a mansion in southern England. The ludicrous nukes vs vincocci ship battle, following on from the carbon copy repeat of The Titanic crashing to earth. Marfa & Mickey married? FFS!

I could go on all day & night. And worst of all, I found it boring. I was fidgeting and looking at the clock from early on. On reflection I've made a mistake giving it 3 - should have been 2/5.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Patrick on Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:01 pm

The Co=Ordinator wrote:So many things were wrong.

Why had the Ood developed so quickly? The return of the Time Lords was a hugely wasted opportunity. Who was the second one with face covered? No back story to Neon. The return of 6.7 billion Masters to what they were (all in the same place) by the wave of a metal glove. A diamond travelling from the time war to just outside a mansion in southern England. The ludicrous nukes vs vincocci ship battle, following on from the carbon copy repeat of The Titanic crashing to earth. Marfa & Mickey married? FFS!

I could go on all day & night. And worst of all, I found it boring. I was fidgeting and looking at the clock from early on. On reflection I've made a mistake giving it 3 - should have been 2/5.

*hugs Tony in a purely platonic way*

C=O, I grant you, there were a lot of provocative story threads left dangling and unresolved. That diamond, who is the woman in white, Gallifrey's lingering status, what of the Master, etc. I see this as RTD giving the Moff a bit of stuff to dwell on in future series. The plot didn't need to answer every question, just one- What circumstances led to the Tenth Doctor's regeneration? This story was always about the Tenth Doctor, not the broader questions of Gallifrey and the Time War.

As for Martha and Mickey, I ask you to consider that both were always the unrequited loves of larger characters. That shaped and defined both of them. The fact that they ended up together seems only logical, at least to me.

I think this is a regeneration story is one that will grow in appreciation over time. And if it doesn't, at least for you, you still have your fellow Wrinklies to vent to about it. We can talk about it. Besides, based on the title credits for part 2, I think you owe me a pint.
Wink

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Zoltar on Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:59 pm

Dave Webb wrote:I saw something different. I think we might have called this "Fate and Fatality", because there's the line about how Wilf has always been there, waiting. This means that the Doctor's course is fixed and there's never anything he can do to avoid his end; it's all predestination - which sucks, because it goes against all the things that the Doctor seems to say about making a difference, all the things that RTD seems to have been saying about ordinary people being important and vital; it's solid Who for the Doctor to give himself to save one ordinary person, and to atone for his arrogance and hubris by sacrificing himself - it's no less than what the show expects from ordinary humans, after all, but predestination and prophecy annoy the shirt out of me as plot devices.
Predestination and prophecy annoy me sometimes as well, simply because they're used a lot. For myself, I liked that moment though. He thought he'd beaten the prophecy and there it was, still on track. Time Lord Victorious can only do so much. When your number's up, it's up.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by ifjsrussell on Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:04 am

As I said previously I enjoyed watching enormously, but I could not undersatnd why I was left with a fairly dissatisfied feeling over all. DT was brilliant as was BC, although overlong, the regeneration was truly sad and well executed. Yesterday a good friend popped in for a coffee he is not a long time fan... but really got into the new series when Donna joined and absolutely loved it. I think his comments to me yesterday about The End of Time helped me to realise what it was that had left me with feeling of overall dissapointmnet. (1) He became confused with the storyline at several points (some thing that RTD always correctly professed was so important to never happen to the "casual" viewer. (2) He also said that the programme needs to decide its target audience.. as with most of series 4 it was quite adult but child friendly... but this story he found to be somewhat "for the kids" with zapping/jumping Master and Simms unrestrained performance and the "rather silly" concept of just happening to turn himself into everyone on earth..
So in the cold light of day I would knock one point off my original 4 rating and give it a 3.

On a very positive note I think Matt Smith will be FANTASTIC! and I say that as someone who thought casting such a young actor was a HUGE mistake Smile
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Dave Webb on Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:52 am

The Co=Ordinator wrote:So many things were wrong.

Why had the Ood developed so quickly?

Good point. No idea, although you could (I suppose) hint that they were tapped into the same mental wavelength that the Master was tuned into and were therefore sharing a part of his mind...or something...

The Co=Ordinator wrote: The return of the Time Lords was a hugely wasted opportunity.

Yep. Upthread someone asked me what I would have done differently and it hinges on the Time Lords and their return. I think instead of silly narration I would have moved the Time Lord bits from episode 2 to episode 1. I would have put the Doctor in the radiation box in part one and given our friendly Lord President an early confrontation with the Doctor, so that he can present the Doctor with a Faustian deal: they can heal him, completely, if he only lets Gallifrey displace the Earth. I would then have left the Doctor to stew in that for a bit, aided by The Master who points out that perhaps the Doctor can take the Time Lords largess and then do what he did before: go on the run in a stolen TARDIS. And perhaps Wilf can nudge the Doctor's thinking into Martha Smith lines: work from the inside to temper the excesses and perhaps change the thinking. Which culminates in a pure Doctor moment, because the next confrontation with the Lord President ends with the Doctor delivering one of his ultimatums: either the Time Lords agree to leave the Earth alone, or ther Doctor will stop them.

Because this way, it's more of a choice. There's no fate here, no destiny, and the 10th Doctor gets to decide what will happen to him.

Where am I getting the time? I'm cutting the 10 minutes of the Doctor's reward, because he's already told the Master that he gets to see all of time and space and that is "mastery enough", and it's also reward enough, Doctor, and shame on you for forgetting that. Oh, and I'm cutting Donna. Sorry, but it's an element that can go. She can faint and do the regenerative energy thing in the house. Then we don't have MOAR PERILS!!11 to further complicate an already complicated plot.

The Co=Ordinator wrote:Who was the second one with face covered?

The Master's Mum?

The Co=Ordinator wrote: No back story to Neon.

Who? What?

The Co=Ordinator wrote:
The return of 6.7 billion Masters to what they were (all in the same place) by the wave of a metal glove. A diamond travelling from the time war to just outside a mansion in southern England. The ludicrous nukes vs vincocci ship battle, following on from the carbon copy repeat of The Titanic crashing to earth. Marfa & Mickey married? FFS!

Dealt with by the evil Uncle Rusty: the Time Lord Glove O'Doom is time lord technology; it breaks the link between the Master, the template and the human race. It's rather a slap in the face to the Master, puts him in his place. The diamond is just about understandable - it's a literal bit of gallifrey that's tough enough to survive the journey. The Vinvocci ship vs nukes was just a bit of high octane fun.

I would have gone further here and given Wilf a line in which he tells the male Vinvocci not to get cocky.

I didn't see a carbon copy of the Titanic. I saw the Doctor go all James Bond, which means that Rusty really should have found a way to get him into Chez Naismith in a tux. Martha and Mickey, married. Yeah. Hmmm. Apparently Tom Milligan was a rebound shag after Martha left the TARDIS, but it's Mickey Smith, Interdimensional Warrior (tm applied for) that ends up being her true love. That's the honeymoon reference we heard about a while back.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Zoltar on Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:08 am

ifjsrussell wrote:On a very positive note I think Matt Smith will be FANTASTIC! and I say that as someone who thought casting such a young actor was a HUGE mistake Smile
From the little we've seen of him, I find myself liking him and having no trouble seeing him as the Doctor. So, yeah, looking good. Smile

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Patrick on Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:04 am

Zoltar wrote:
ifjsrussell wrote:On a very positive note I think Matt Smith will be FANTASTIC! and I say that as someone who thought casting such a young actor was a HUGE mistake Smile
From the little we've seen of him, I find myself liking him and having no trouble seeing him as the Doctor. So, yeah, looking good. Smile

He certainly looks energetic, leaping over fences and punching people. That woman wearing the sunglasses and holding the gun- the clip goes so fast I couldn't catch it- was she River Song? It looked like it.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by barnaby morbius on Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:55 am

i think it was the best story i've seen since "Kinda" Very Happy
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by The Browncoat Cat on Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:08 pm

Patrick wrote:And then the deed is done. He's absorbed all that radiation (which, considering he did something similar in Smith & Jones, is pretty odd. Of course, they are different kinds of radiation.) As soon as his scratches and cuts magically heal themselves, he knows he's on borrowed time. Acceptance is his 'reward.' And part of that acceptance is getting the chance to say goodbye to all those companions of his one last time.
I still say that as an even numbered Doctor, it was the fall that killed him, poisoning polishes of odd numbered Doctors. Falling from the Vinvocci ship into the Naismith mansion is what actually killed him, absorbing all that radiation was just the icing on the cake.
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by The Browncoat Cat on Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:12 pm

My review of the story is now on my web log.
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Zoltar on Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:17 pm

Patrick wrote:He certainly looks energetic, leaping over fences and punching people. That woman wearing the sunglasses and holding the gun- the clip goes so fast I couldn't catch it- was she River Song? It looked like it.
The scene with the punch was interesting, he almost looked surprised he'd thrown it. I think that is River, yep.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Dingdongalistic on Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:02 pm

The Co=Ordinator wrote:Sorry to say that, right now, I'm distinctly underwhelmed. Sad

Ditto.
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Dave Webb on Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:56 pm

I watched it again, and I have to revise my opinions slightly.

Once you know what's going on, and can settle back without any confusion, it's rather better than it was at first watch. In the light of this, I need to retract my statements about changing the order of things and changing the emphasis of the Doctor's fate. It works fine just as it is. I would still have written this story differently, but that's because I'm not RTD. See my lack of TV writing experience as proof.

It still gets 3/5, because it suffers from RTD's desire to have each ending be more spectacular than the last, but it wins - as Nick says - because that's just misdirection to keep the viewing public entertained while Rusty tells a much more simple, subtle story.

I just wish he'd had the balls to tell the subtle story without the loud trappings.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Zoltar on Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:10 am

Dave Webb wrote:It still gets 3/5, because it suffers from RTD's desire to have each ending be more spectacular than the last, but it wins - as Nick says - because that's just misdirection to keep the viewing public entertained while Rusty tells a much more simple, subtle story.

I just wish he'd had the balls to tell the subtle story without the loud trappings.
I know what you mean. I recently said something similar to Bonsai in a chat. But that's the "big season finale" business, so I suppose I let it slide.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Lee Carey on Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:38 am

Dave Webb wrote:I watched it again, and I have to revise my opinions slightly.

Once you know what's going on, and can settle back without any confusion, it's rather better than it was at first watch. In the light of this, I need to retract my statements about changing the order of things and changing the emphasis of the Doctor's fate. It works fine just as it is. I would still have written this story differently, but that's because I'm not RTD. See my lack of TV writing experience as proof.

It still gets 3/5, because it suffers from RTD's desire to have each ending be more spectacular than the last, but it wins - as Nick says - because that's just misdirection to keep the viewing public entertained while Rusty tells a much more simple, subtle story.

I just wish he'd had the balls to tell the subtle story without the loud trappings.
But surely that's what the season finales/specials are about: they're the all singing, all dancing stories with lots of thunder because that's what the scheduling requires. I think some fans have it the wrong way around when it comes to how RTD approaches a story. Fans seem to think that Davies comes up with a story and then adds layer upon layer of spectacle, whereas he's given a request to write a spectacle, and then layers the story around that.

And Davies can write subtle stories: Boomtown, Love & Monsters and Midnight are all examples of these, but the scheduling of those stories within a series are crucial, as any of them would be wasted as a Christmas special, and the BBC would likely veto the script anyway.

I rather liked the End of Time myself-- it doesn't reach the heights of Parting of the Ways as a regeneration story, but as an examination of mortality and the raging against the dark, it fulfils it's remit. All the characters are trying to delay death, with only the White Lady, Wilf and the Doctor doing so with grace, dignity and self sacrifice (Wilf, after all, offers to remain in the Radiation booth instead of allowing the Doctor to take his place). Even the Doctor's two tirades are brief, and simply letting his rage out of his system in a way that does not damage others.

I also agree about picking up subtleties when re-watching: it was only after a re-watch that I realised where the Narrator's appearance in part one fitted in the narrative of part two (after the plan has been put in action, and the diamond sent to Earth).
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Dave Webb on Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:42 am

Lee Carey wrote:But surely that's what the season finales/specials are about: they're the all singing, all dancing stories with lots of thunder because that's what the scheduling requires.

I disagree that this is what the scheduling requires and that it's necessarily good TV, it is what people have come to expect from a season finale - and the fact that we now expect season finales is telling, really.

That's beside the point, though. You're right.

I dunno about how he writes- having not read his book, I get the impression (mostly from his appearances on Confidential) that he loves spectacle as much as the next person and thoroughly enjoys his opportunities to write them. I'm sure the fan meditations on RTD will continue, but for me he's always been a gleeful child in a toyshop. As I've said, I think my viewing of the show was coloured by the fact that I really didn't want the outgoing team to leave - something I haven't had to deal with since Baker, T left the show - and I'm therefore going through the however many stages of fan-grief.

Part of that is watching the trailer for the next series and idly wondering when the BBC thinks spring starts. Soon, I hope.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by The Co=Ordinator on Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:48 am

April 3rd, Easter Saturday, is very strong favourite for Series 5.

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by andrea on Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:19 am

Well, most of what I feel about The End of Time has been covered above - and rather better than I could say it. I never particularly look forward to the season finales as epic and spectacular are not really my cup of tea. I then watch and more or less enjoy each finale as I get caught up in it. Then I come on here and on Frank's site to learn what it all meant which usually helps. I never feel a desire to rewatch the season finales though, it's always something else I fancy. And yet if I ever do rewatch one of the finales (and I watched all four seasons after season 4 finished) I find there is so much more to enjoy than I remembered - all those quiet little moments like Wilf and the Doctor in the cafe for example.

I know some people didn't like all the 'last visits' the Doctor did before regenerating but I liked the idea of them. He was saying goodbye and taking care of those he felt were his family and what is more natural than that. And, as others have said, perhaps we were saying goodbye too. I was also happy to see Donna's wedding. OK, she can't travel with the Doctor any more but, if her apparent contentment in the computer world of Forest of the Dead is any indication, maybe having children and bringing them up will leave her rather happier and more fulfilled than we feared she would be after the end of Journey's End.
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Dingdongalistic on Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:15 pm

Lee Carey wrote:
Dave Webb wrote:I watched it again, and I have to revise my opinions slightly.

Once you know what's going on, and can settle back without any confusion, it's rather better than it was at first watch. In the light of this, I need to retract my statements about changing the order of things and changing the emphasis of the Doctor's fate. It works fine just as it is. I would still have written this story differently, but that's because I'm not RTD. See my lack of TV writing experience as proof.

It still gets 3/5, because it suffers from RTD's desire to have each ending be more spectacular than the last, but it wins - as Nick says - because that's just misdirection to keep the viewing public entertained while Rusty tells a much more simple, subtle story.

I just wish he'd had the balls to tell the subtle story without the loud trappings.
But surely that's what the season finales/specials are about: they're the all singing, all dancing stories with lots of thunder because that's what the scheduling requires.

I'm not sure I agree. Shows go into a spiral of death if every finale has to be visibly more ridiculous in scope than the last -- it just isn't possible to marry with the requirements of a continuing series, particularly one that, like Doctor Who, looks to be sustainably continuing, rather than moving towards a seven-series conclusion, like the average American show.

It must be possible to innovate, creating new ways of surprising and stunning the viewer without simply going for "bigger is better" every time. I don't need experience as a writer to know that, I think -- simply experience as a viewer.

I think some fans have it the wrong way around when it comes to how RTD approaches a story. Fans seem to think that Davies comes up with a story and then adds layer upon layer of spectacle, whereas he's given a request to write a spectacle, and then layers the story around that.

And Davies can write subtle stories: Boomtown, Love & Monsters and Midnight are all examples of these, but the scheduling of those stories within a series are crucial, as any of them would be wasted as a Christmas special, and the BBC would likely veto the script anyway.

I think the BBC aren't likely to exercise a huge amount of control -- perhaps if the story was obviously unsuitable, but I suspect that they don't force a format or particularly type of format on the showrunner.
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Dave Webb on Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:48 pm

Dingdongalistic wrote:
I'm not sure I agree. Shows go into a spiral of death if every finale has to be visibly more ridiculous in scope than the last

None of the finales have been visibly ridiculous - apart from Journey's End, because who in their right minds would believe in that scene with the Tardis towing a planet. I mean, Captain Jack's on board and surrounded by women...there should be far fewer clothes involved!

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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Dingdongalistic on Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:08 am

Dave Webb wrote:
Dingdongalistic wrote:
I'm not sure I agree. Shows go into a spiral of death if every finale has to be visibly more ridiculous in scope than the last

None of the finales have been visibly ridiculous - apart from Journey's End, because who in their right minds would believe in that scene with the Tardis towing a planet. I mean, Captain Jack's on board and surrounded by women...there should be far fewer clothes involved!

Ridiculous in scope. And I suppose as usual I could have used better words. I don't think that you can sustain a trend which has every finale being bigger and more disastrous than than the last.
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

Post by Patrick on Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:01 am

Not to distract from Dave and DingDong's debate, but from the Dr. Who News Page, the US premiere of End of Time Part 2 last Saturday on BBC-America drew an audience of 1.47 million across three airings. That rating is apparently the highest viewer figure BBC-America has ever had for an original drama, and it displaces The Waters of Mars (which aired two weeks before End of Time Part 2), and the five-night Torchwood: Children of Earth, which aired back in July.

Considering BBC-America is a strictly cable network, one of approximately 200 viewing channels the average US viewer has access to, that's a fairly significant number.
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Re: Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

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