Unrealistic Expectations

Are certain subsections of fans setting themselves up for an almighty fall in what they envision Moffat is going to bring to the series?

What do you think is the main mistake such fans are making - and how do you imagine them reacting when it becomes apparent that what they get isn't even close to what they've been expecting?

Sid Seadevil wrote:Are certain subsections of fans setting themselves up for an almighty fall in what they envision Moffat is going to bring to the series?

What do you think is the main mistake such fans are making - and how do you imagine them reacting when it becomes apparent that what they get isn't even close to what they've been expecting?

Interesting questions, Sid.

I come away from certain sections of fandom thinking they believe they're going to get a full season of "The Empty Child" or "Silence in the Library." That is, a full season of stories that have a certain mood and tension, punctuated with light sexual comedy or innuendo. But that belief ignores a couple of salient facts:

First, in all of the stories the Moff contributed during the RTD era, he never once introduced a classic series nemesis. That will, of necessity, change when he takes the helm, and that means the way he tells those stories will also have to change. When he writes a Dalek tale, for example, there's a certain history there he has to acknowledge.

Second, being a producer is a far different role than being a writer. The Moff now has to consider the problem of consistent themes throughout a whole season, story arcs to go through a whole season, defining companions and other recurring satellite characters as contrasting to his take on the Doctor, and how to climax a season. All those decisions are going to greatly influence how he now writes an individual episode.

Okay, Sid, so how do you think the Moff will handle it? Will he be closer to RTD's formula for putting together a series, or will he break the mold?

Patrick wrote:Okay, Sid, so how do you think the Moff will handle it? Will he be closer to RTD's formula for putting together a series, or will he break the mold?

Much more the former rather than the latter, I suspect. The Moff's on record as believing that RTD had pretty much crafted the perfect format for the modern television landscape and thus whatever changes we do see I think will be minimal. Just small tweaks that will allow his own crative idiosycrasices to fuse seemlessly with the existing framework.

I think, having seen bits of Jekyll and the way the Moff constructed scripts for Coupling, that the story arcs might be more intricate than RTD's ones.

Doc Filth wrote:I think, having seen bits of Jekyll and the way the Moff constructed scripts for Coupling, that the story arcs might be more intricate than RTD's ones.

It's a possiblity Doc, but I suspect he might just reel that kind of sophistication in slightly in order to ensure the the youngst section of the audience feel as included as possible. At least for his first full series.

Sid Seadevil wrote:Are certain subsections of fans setting themselves up for an almighty fall in what they envision Moffat is going to bring to the series?

What do you think is the main mistake such fans are making - and how do you imagine them reacting when it becomes apparent that what they get isn't even close to what they've been expecting?

I think there are some viewers that set themselves up for a fall everytime the show appears on the screen, Moffat or otherwise. As for their main mistake in doing so? Trying to define what Doctor Who "must do/be", when part of it's charm is that it doesn't have to be one set thing carved in stone. As for reactions, I'm sure "cringing" will be involved, followed by a random overreaction of their choice.

Zoltar wrote:I think there are some viewers that set themselves up for a fall everytime the show appears on the screen, Moffat or otherwise. As for their main mistake in doing so? Trying to define what Doctor Who "must do/be", when part of it's charm is that it doesn't have to be one set thing carved in stone. As for reactions, I'm sure "cringing" will be involved, followed by a random overreaction of their choice.

Give that man a banana and a dog-eared copy of a magazine of his choice for his acute observations.

Doc Filth wrote:I think, having seen bits of Jekyll and the way the Moff constructed scripts for Coupling, that the story arcs might be more intricate than RTD's ones.

Ooh, I hope so!

I liked Jekyll.

I'm sure the Darkness!Gravitas! types will be disappointed when Moffat writes another scene where the Doctor gets drunk, or sticks in another joke about exploding chickens. But I think we will be seeing a few significant shifts.

1) The Doctor's love life. While RTD has written romantic interests for the Doctor, it as been mostly platonic and kept under the surface and not at the forefront. However, judging by some of Moffat's episodes:
"You just assume I don't 'dance'."
"My Doctor... dance with me."
"What do you have handcuffs for?" "Spoilers!"
Moffat's Doctor seems to be more sexual, and it is more up-front than we have been used to.

2) RTD has focused on the Doctor's effect on the companion, and him making the companion a hero. He is literally, as The Master points out, the man who makes people better. In all the finales bar Doomsday, the Doctor's influence on the companion has inspired or caused her to do something great. However, Moffat seems more concerned with the Doctor being the hero. He dances his way to saving the world in TDD, he jumps through a mirror on horseback to save his french girlfriend, he defeats the Vashta Nerada just by telling them his name, and he manages to save Sally and Larry despite not even being in the episode. Again, this is a notable shift from the hero figure being the companion, as influenced by the Doctor, to being the Doctor himself.

3) Judging by his Jekyll and Coupling scripts, and Blink, it is clear that Moffat likes his plotting. The plot is often at the forefront of his story, and will be more complete tighter, whereas RTD tends to focus more on the characters, and writes the plot to suit them. Now, this isn't to say that Moffat can't write character moments, because TDD clearly refutes that on its own, and neither am I saying that RTD can't plot. But when it comes to concluding a story, I think that Moffat tends to write an ending that primarily functions to enhance the plot, whereas I think RTD writes and ending that serves the characters. But both writers have got the balance in the right zone, but this slight shift may be the reason why those fans who have been less positive about RTD's version may well prefer Moffat's style, but not for the Darkness!Gravitas! reasons they think.

4) Less technobabble.
"Must be a spatial temporal hyperlink." "What's that?" "No idea, just made it up. Didn't want to say 'magic door'..."
"People assume that time is a strict progression from cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey.... stuff."
Yes, it's clear that Moffat dislikes technobabble. However, RTD loves it. The conclusion to Voyage of the Damned centres entirely around technobabble. However, this is a small, superficial difference and won't amount to anything more than a few jokes now and again.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

PS. First post here!

Lucy McGough wrote:Ooh, I hope so!

I liked Jekyll.

I liked Mrs Jekyll.

Sid Seadevil wrote:

Lucy McGough wrote:Ooh, I hope so!

I liked Jekyll.

I liked Mrs Jekyll.

I preferred the sexy psychiatrist.

Lucy McGough wrote:

Sid Seadevil wrote:

Lucy McGough wrote:Ooh, I hope so!

I liked Jekyll.

I liked Mrs Jekyll.

I preferred the sexy psychiatrist.

I liked Michelle Ryan - but then again that's hardly a stunning revelation.

The_Void wrote:I'm sure the Darkness!Gravitas! types will be disappointed when Moffat writes another scene where the Doctor gets drunk, or sticks in another joke about exploding chickens. But I think we will be seeing a few significant shifts....<Lots of really interesting and perceptive observations>...Anyway, that's just my two cents.

PS. First post here!

And a wonderful first post it was too, The_Void. Congratulations and Welcome to OW.

Sid Seadevil wrote:

The_Void wrote:I'm sure the Darkness!Gravitas! types will be disappointed when Moffat writes another scene where the Doctor gets drunk, or sticks in another joke about exploding chickens. But I think we will be seeing a few significant shifts....<Lots of really interesting and perceptive observations>...Anyway, that's just my two cents.

PS. First post here!

And a wonderful first post it was too, The_Void. Congratulations and Welcome to OW.

Thank you, I may be spending a lot more time here. Beats arguing with T-man and reading Chatham fics in The Other Place, for sure.

The_Void wrote:Thank you, I may be spending a lot more time here. Beats arguing with T-man and reading Chatham fics in The Other Place, for sure.

That's great to hear, Voidy - And I don't blame you at all. The Other Place's loss is OW's gain.

The_Void wrote:

Sid Seadevil wrote:

The_Void wrote:I'm sure the Darkness!Gravitas! types will be disappointed when Moffat writes another scene where the Doctor gets drunk, or sticks in another joke about exploding chickens. But I think we will be seeing a few significant shifts....<Lots of really interesting and perceptive observations>...Anyway, that's just my two cents.

PS. First post here!

And a wonderful first post it was too, The_Void. Congratulations and Welcome to OW.

Thank you, I may be spending a lot more time here. Beats arguing with T-man and reading Chatham fics in The Other Place, for sure.

it's much more pleasant here i must say...just dropped into DWF and aaargh...tman was being particularly annoying. it sort of remeinds me of love and monsters where something good gets ruined by bad people

Sid Seadevil wrote:

Doc Filth wrote:I think, having seen bits of Jekyll and the way the Moff constructed scripts for Coupling, that the story arcs might be more intricate than RTD's ones.

It's a possiblity Doc, but I suspect he might just reel that kind of sophistication in slightly in order to ensure the the youngst section of the audience feel as included as possible. At least for his first full series.

I don't think it's just for the kids - I think people don't mind overall arcs in the series, but they do get annoyed when they discover they were meant to be taking notes earlier in the series to understand what's going on at the end. (And anyway, complicated references back to previous continuity is the hallmark of SOPES and there will be no SOPE and more SIENS when the Moff takes over )

I think the arcs are there to reward the regular view, but not alienate the occasional ones, otherwise you end up with something like the later series of Stargate which could be completely incomprehensible to someone who hadn't been watching avidly since the start.

Personally I have no idea what to expect in 2010. Moffat may have honed his annual submissions to perfection most of the time but I'll be fascinated to see how his work adapts to being a showrunner too and all round busy bee.

With even Gold now moving on and a fresh Doctor on the cards, 2010 will likely be as different from RTD as Hinchcliffe was from Letts. My main concern is that it retains its individuality within a very samey TV landscape and doesn't just merge in seamlessly.

Even if Moffat tries to consciously replicate RTD's style of showrunning, it would always be different at heart - RTD's work can be as unique as a fingerprint after all. But I'm sure Moffat will do his own thing. He's that kinda man.

In a sense there will, understandably, be unrealistic expectations on Moffat's version of Who. Certainly from fandom. But, as he's said, he's been preparing for this job since childhood, and I imagine planning more seriously since the series returned in 2005 - well aware of the possibity that he might be Russell's successor.

He's been writing/producing series and serials longer than RTD, is well aware of the changes in tone expected throughout a series, and already has a very workable, very successful 13 episode template. So, in terms of story/overall series quality, I have complete faith in him.

What can't be accounted for, however, are all the new elements to be introduced in time for series 5 - first and foremost the new Doctor, plus a new companion, new composer, and presumably changes to the production team. In that sense, much like series 1, it may take a few episodes to bed in.

First post btw. I'm liking the relaxed atmosphere

Ioan Morris wrote:In a sense there will, understandably, be unrealistic expectations on Moffat's version of Who. Certainly from fandom. But, as he's said, he's been preparing for this job since childhood, and I imagine planning more seriously since the series returned in 2005 - well aware of the possibity that he might be Russell's successor.

He's been writing/producing series and serials longer than RTD, is well aware of the changes in tone expected throughout a series, and already has a very workable, very successful 13 episode template. So, in terms of story/overall series quality, I have complete faith in him.

What can't be accounted for, however, are all the new elements to be introduced in time for series 5 - first and foremost the new Doctor, plus a new companion, new composer, and presumably changes to the production team. In that sense, much like series 1, it may take a few episodes to bed in.

First post btw. I'm liking the relaxed atmosphere

And a fine first post it was, Ioan. Welcome to the Wrinklies! We're always relaxed around here.

Regarding the new elements you spoke of, I think it will be interesting to see how the specials are treated in 2009. Didn't I read that RTD will be co-writing the last two specials? If so, can we assume that the co-writer will be The Moff, himself, and that duo will be focused on smoothing the transition to some extent?

Patrick wrote:And a fine first post it was, Ioan. Welcome to the Wrinklies! We're always relaxed around here.

Agreed, on all counts.

Welcome to the OW, Ioan.

Patrick wrote:Regarding the new elements you spoke of, I think it will be interesting to see how the specials are treated in 2009. Didn't I read that RTD will be co-writing the last two specials? If so, can we assume that the co-writer will be The Moff, himself, and that duo will be focused on smoothing the transition to some extent?

I think RTD's writing the first two specials. The other co-writers are Phil Ford and Gareth Roberts. So, no I don't think so.