Rate "The End of Time" Part Two

I'd agree that each finale has been getting bigger than the last, and consequently more ridiculous. Last of the Time Lords was okay, and so was Doomsday, but trying to destroy reality itself (muahahahaha!) or bring about the End of Time (muahahahahaha!) is just sort of silly.

Why can't we have finales where the only person being threatened is the Doctor, or his companion, and the threat comes from someone he thought he could trust, or (as in The Parting of the Ways) something he's done? Low SFX-whizz-bang-wallop impact, high emotional impact. That's the way to tell stories. Dickens made me more emotionally engaged with a street sweeper dying from a common illness than I ever was with one of Uncle Rusty's extravaganzas.

I mean, why should I feel sorry for the death of Astrid? I'd only known her five minutes, and most of her screen time was spent dodging bullets (so to speak) rather than establishing a character for her.

[/rant]

(Sorry, that came out more stentorian than I had originally envisaged.)

Lucy McGough wrote:I'd agree that each finale has been getting bigger than the last, and consequently more ridiculous. Last of the Time Lords was okay, and so was Doomsday, but trying to destroy reality itself (muahahahaha!) or bring about the End of Time (muahahahahaha!) is just sort of silly.

Why can't we have finales where the only person being threatened is the Doctor, or his companion, and the threat comes from someone he thought he could trust, or (as in The Parting of the Ways) something he's done? Low SFX-whizz-bang-wallop impact, high emotional impact. That's the way to tell stories. Dickens made me more emotionally engaged with a street sweeper dying from a common illness than I ever was with one of Uncle Rusty's extravaganzas.

I mean, why should I feel sorry for the death of Astrid? I'd only known her five minutes, and most of her screen time was spent dodging bullets (so to speak) rather than establishing a character for her.

[/rant]

(Sorry, that came out more stentorian than I had originally envisaged.)

It's why I would have preferred Turn Left as a finale to Series 4. When you think about it, there's no real reason why it couldn't have been.

Exactly! No reason at all. But no, we had to have the Daleks trying to destroy reality itself. How is that even possible? How could they destroy all of reality apart from themselves? And wouldn't it be awfully boring?

Lucy McGough wrote:And wouldn't it be awfully boring?

To us, yes. To a Dalek, no. You remember what they're like - a tree, a jug of wine and thou*

The Daleks: the BNP, but with added honesty.




*for a range of "thou" in the very narrowest of terms. If "thou"=/= "Dalek" then Exterminate!

Dave Webb wrote:

Lucy McGough wrote:And wouldn't it be awfully boring?

To us, yes. To a Dalek, no. You remember what they're like - a tree, a jug of wine and thou*

The Daleks: the BNP, but with added honesty.




*for a range of "thou" in the very narrowest of terms. If "thou"=/= "Dalek" then Exterminate!

Indeed. Besides, the Daleks and Davros aren't exactly playing with a full deck. Caan is definitely not the only looney in that bunch.

Zoltar wrote:
Indeed. Besides, the Daleks and Davros aren't exactly playing with a full deck. Caan is definitely not the only looney in that bunch.

So, edging nervously back towards the topic: the Dalek plan is to achieve their perenially stated aim of being the supreme (and only) life form in the universe. It's all in keeping with how they're supposed to behave.

I suppose that the Dalek Reality Bomb and the Time Lords Final Sanction are the same, and that both sides had decided that if they couldn't have the universe no one could.

Dave Webb wrote:So, edging nervously back towards the topic: the Dalek plan is to achieve their perenially stated aim of being the supreme (and only) life form in the universe. It's all in keeping with how they're supposed to behave.

I suppose that the Dalek Reality Bomb and the Time Lords Final Sanction are the same, and that both sides had decided that if they couldn't have the universe no one could.

Yes, equally as looney, it seems (most of) the Time Lords became. I liked that moment when the Doctor said he preferred to remember the Time Lords and Gallifrey as wonderful, when they'd actually become anything but.

it did try too hard - and so many characters were left underused. I would loved to have seen more from the siver cloak, Naismiths and the time lord council.

however - like everything who - i really enjoyed it and will doubtless buy the dvd!

looking forward to the Spring.

(happy birthday Elvis)

I doubt we'll see the Silver Cloak again - although it's an interesting idea - but we might see the Naismiths. After all, they aren't dead and they are rich, so there's plenty of scope for them to want revenge.

Dave Webb wrote:I doubt we'll see the Silver Cloak again - although it's an interesting idea - but we might see the Naismiths. After all, they aren't dead and they are rich, so there's plenty of scope for them to want revenge.

My problem with the Naismiths is they weren't particularly interesting characters. Even Dalton's narration described them as the "idiots who thought they could control the future" (or words to that effect.) They were only there as a convenient way to explain the device they 'liberated' from the crashed ship that had been held in Torchwood. If Torchwood 1 hadn't been written out a couple of series ago, we'd have had Yvonne Hartmann and her thugs kidnapping the Master and claiming she was doing it for Queen and Country. (And for the sake of the drama, I'd have found that easier to accept as an explanation than "I want my daughter to live forever.")

The Silver Cloak was a brilliant idea, and gave Bernard Cribbins some fantastic on screen moments. But as it's unlikely we're going to go back and visit either Wilf or Donna again, I'd say we've probably seen the last of them. As the Doctor said to Cap'n Jack in Utopia: "Busy life, moving on."

Dingdongalistic wrote:It's why I would have preferred Turn Left as a finale to Series 4. When you think about it, there's no real reason why it couldn't have been.

There's loads of reasons why it couldn't have been a series finale.
Firstly, it wouldn't make sense, as it leads into the next story, which was the series finale.
It's too self-referential for a finale, which shouldn't be a what if looking back overthe past few years.
It wouldn't work as a two-parter, which the series finales tend to be.
It's too grim and miserable for a series finale.
It's got too much talking and too little action to be a series finale.
It's a Doctor-light episode, and I think that the series finale should ionvolve the series' lead character.
And, also, all the plot points that were resolved in Journey's End would have to be squeezed into Turn Left, which would be impossible.

If RTD handed in Turn Left as the series 4 finale, the BBC would send it back and ask for their end of year spectacular.

Lucy McGough wrote:Exactly! No reason at all. But no, we had to have the Daleks trying to destroy reality itself. How is that even possible? How could they destroy all of reality apart from themselves? And wouldn't it be awfully boring?

Haven't you realised yet that everything in Doctor Who is impossible? It's not a documentary.

The Co=Ordinator wrote:Why had the Ood developed so quickly?

As stated, it was because time was leaking.

Who was the second one with face covered?

He was the other Time Lord who voted against Rassilon's plan - as Rassilon stated.

No back story to Neon.

Who?

The return of 6.7 billion Masters to what they were (all in the same place) by the wave of a metal glove. A diamond travelling from the time war to just outside a mansion in southern England.

All consistent with the powers that the Time Lords have historically displayed. They moved the planet Earth across the galaxy at one point, y'know.

The ludicrous nukes vs vincocci ship battle, following on from the carbon copy repeat of The Titanic crashing to earth.

The exciting battle followed by - 'carbon copy'? Huh? I must have missed that!

I was fidgeting and looking at the clock from early on.

You should have been paying more attention to the screen, you may have understood it better!

Rich Flair wrote:

Lucy McGough wrote:Exactly! No reason at all. But no, we had to have the Daleks trying to destroy reality itself. How is that even possible? How could they destroy all of reality apart from themselves? And wouldn't it be awfully boring?

Haven't you realised yet that everything in Doctor Who is impossible? It's not a documentary.

And part of the reason I love Doctor Who is it's capacity to do something stark raving mad. The fact that nowadays once or twice a year it does the biggest thing it can think of doing is fantastic. Once the proper series returns, there will be the smaller, more delicate stories, stories where there's less "SFX-whizz-bang-wallop impact."

I think as well, I need to join the masses in trying to Tony to tell us who Neon is...

Rich Flair wrote:Haven't you realised yet that everything in Doctor Who is impossible? It's not a documentary.

It must be real - it has Barack Obama and Anne Widdecombe in it!

Rich Flair wrote:

Dingdongalistic wrote:It's why I would have preferred Turn Left as a finale to Series 4. When you think about it, there's no real reason why it couldn't have been.

There's loads of reasons why it couldn't have been a series finale.
Firstly, it wouldn't make sense, as it leads into the next story, which was the series finale.

It doesn't need to, actually, as most of the story is a fairly self-contained adventure concerning where the world would be without the Doctor. Most of the foreshadowing probably doesn't take much more than a couple of minutes in screen time.

It's too self-referential for a finale

As opposed to the finale?

It wouldn't work as a two-parter, which the series finales tend to be.

Four years ago I'd agree -- before Doctor Who had really mastered the 45 minute format. But I think Turn Left, if anything, could be slimmed down.

It's too grim and miserable for a series finale.

Series 3 finale, anyone?

In any case, Turn Left balances it. It's grim and miserable while the Doctor isn't there, but the end message is hopeful -- Donna doesn't die, but merely restores reality.

It's got too much talking and too little action to be a series finale.
It's a Doctor-light episode, and I think that the series finale should ionvolve the series' lead character.

Again, I don't agree. I appreciate it's down to taste, but I would point out that though Tennant isn't present much, the episode is all about the Doctor.

And, also, all the plot points that were resolved in Journey's End would have to be squeezed into Turn Left, which would be impossible.

You could get rid of the series-long plot points in series 4 and I'd be happy. In any case, they're not actually that extensive.

If RTD handed in Turn Left as the series 4 finale, the BBC would send it back and ask for their end of year spectacular.

Really.

I'm curious about something. And be honest when you answer.

If we'd had Outpost Wrinkly in 1981 (It probably would have been called Outpost Gen-X at the time), what would everyone's reactions have been to Logopolis?

Let's bring up the history files.

So, we have our hero Time Lord, being shown evidence that his regeneration is at hand. His oldest nemesis, a being from his own society, has a plan that could destroy reality itself. This nemesis takes several pot shots at him, the effect of which merely weaken the Doctor but don't actually kill him. And our hero Time Lord takes a great fall around the same time he halts a transmited computer code that prevents a monstrous evil from being made manifest.

With me so far?

En route to this great fall, our hero Time Lord has to endure being cut off from outside help. And when he overcomes this obsticle, he even acts to help his greatest nemesis from being killed, and collaberates with him to prevent the monstrous evil from being made manifest.

Ultimately, our Time Lord hero sacrifices himself, not with a big explosion, but with the whimper of a quiet moment of resignation.

What were your thoughts on Logopolis, and what are your thoughts on the similarities between it and The End of Time?

Patrick wrote:If we'd had Outpost Wrinkly in 1981 (It probably would have been called Outpost Gen-X at the time), what would everyone's reactions have been to Logopolis?

Only 6 million viewers? Last year, Williams and Adams got 18 million - it's obvious that JNT must go!
Why Trevor Martin should have been chosen to play the Doctor, not Peter Davison - it's like they've declared 'Seven Keys To Doomsday' as non-canon!
Where were the Sarah Jane and Leela cameos the spoiler kings were telling us about, eh?

Rich Flair wrote:Who?

Neon was Naismith's company, vis a vis the poster on the side of the bus in Planet of the Dead. It's how he made his money. It's how he was able to obtain The Immortality Gate. Part of the back story.

You should have been paying more attention to the screen, you may have understood it better!

Perhaps you should as well Rich.