Rate "The Pandorica Opens"

Rich Flair wrote:Can't we all get along? Doc Filth has a job, for crissakes. We should be celebrating!

sadly Doc Filth is not enchanted with season 5. according to his facebook.

stanmore wrote:
Generally, often when people are asked how good an episode is they think they're being asked "how similar is it to x's era?" I don't think people do that here. But after four serieses of constantly being made to think, entertained and surprised, you are going to notice when the next series does that less to you. And even then, I don't think there's a "constant stream of negativity." Perhaps "permanent air of disenchantment" from some of us (probably including me).

Hmm, more food for thought: How much of fandom's disenchantment with the current series of Doctor Who is down to it no longer being new? That Dr Who has an inbuilt lifespan, and after that its viewers notice the repetitions and flaws inherent in any long running tv show (especially genre tv)? Especially considering the sixteen years it wasn't on, and then the return that was better than anyone expected?

And maybe I've just grown out of the other end: for me this series is as much Doctor Who, and as thought provoking, entertaining and surprising as the previous five years output. There's probably the same ratio of stories I've disliked and those I've loved (although dislike maybe the wrong word: I still don't think any story shown since 2005 has actually been bad, especially in terms of Timelash bad, but I've enjoyed some stories more than others), and the casting of Smith has reinvigorated the show.

Maybe Dr Who fans simply dislike change? Which brings us back to why the Wrinklies were originally founded: to celebrate that change.

Oh well, I'll shut up now.

(And Colin has a job! Blimey.)

Lee Carey wrote:Hmm, more food for thought: How much of fandom's disenchantment with the current series of Doctor Who is down to it no longer being new? That Dr Who has an inbuilt lifespan, and after that its viewers notice the repetitions and flaws inherent in any long running tv show (especially genre tv)?

In that case, I must be atypical. I think this series is utterly brilliant.

I think The Wrinkly Appreciation Index is quite a useful tool in gauging what *we* think.

Lee Carey wrote:

stanmore wrote:
Generally, often when people are asked how good an episode is they think they're being asked "how similar is it to x's era?" I don't think people do that here. But after four serieses of constantly being made to think, entertained and surprised, you are going to notice when the next series does that less to you. And even then, I don't think there's a "constant stream of negativity." Perhaps "permanent air of disenchantment" from some of us (probably including me).

Hmm, more food for thought: How much of fandom's disenchantment with the current series of Doctor Who is down to it no longer being new? That Dr Who has an inbuilt lifespan, and after that its viewers notice the repetitions and flaws inherent in any long running tv show (especially genre tv)? Especially considering the sixteen years it wasn't on, and then the return that was better than anyone expected?

And maybe I've just grown out of the other end: for me this series is as much Doctor Who, and as thought provoking, entertaining and surprising as the previous five years output. There's probably the same ratio of stories I've disliked and those I've loved (although dislike maybe the wrong word: I still don't think any story shown since 2005 has actually been bad, especially in terms of Timelash bad, but I've enjoyed some stories more than others), and the casting of Smith has reinvigorated the show.

Maybe Dr Who fans simply dislike change? Which brings us back to why the Wrinklies were originally founded: to celebrate that change.

Oh well, I'll shut up now.

(And Colin has a job! Blimey.)

i'd quite like to see a timelash/time and the rani style story- with cardboard sets, rubbish puppet aliens and loads of technobabble/pip and jane baker dialogue

The Co=Ordinator wrote:The big problem I have is that peope don't contribute sufficiently to this forum, and that is a betrayal of Wrinklydom itself.

The thing is, some people find writing stuff harder than others. Not just the writing, though that comes easier to some than to others, but actually having something interesting to say. Posting 'Well, I really enjoyed that.' or 'I didn't really like that one much.' doesn't seem very worthwhile.

See, I was trying to write something here but I couldn't seem to make it say exactly what I have in my head and I'm not sure it was very interesting anyway.

I feel happier with the season now twelve episodes have aired than I did after the first few. This is not because I have preferred the later episodes to the earlier ones as I have found them mixed. I think it is because I have got used to the change in tone that having SM as the man in charge, rather than RTD, has brought. Regular change is necessary in Doctor Who (as is variety through a series) but it can take a little while to get used to it (but I thought Matt Smith wonderful from the very start).

andrea wrote:The thing is, some people find writing stuff harder than others. Not just the writing, though that comes easier to some than to others, but actually having something interesting to say. Posting 'Well, I really enjoyed that.' or 'I didn't really like that one much.' doesn't seem very worthwhile.

But that's absolutely fine Andrea. Most of my posts are one, or two, liners - & nearly all worthless rubbish to boot!

Lee Carey wrote:Hmm, more food for thought: How much of fandom's disenchantment with the current series of Doctor Who is down to it no longer being new? That Dr Who has an inbuilt lifespan, and after that its viewers notice the repetitions and flaws inherent in any long running tv show (especially genre tv)? Especially considering the sixteen years it wasn't on, and then the return that was better than anyone expected?

And maybe I've just grown out of the other end: for me this series is as much Doctor Who, and as thought provoking, entertaining and surprising as the previous five years output. There's probably the same ratio of stories I've disliked and those I've loved (although dislike maybe the wrong word: I still don't think any story shown since 2005 has actually been bad, especially in terms of Timelash bad, but I've enjoyed some stories more than others), and the casting of Smith has reinvigorated the show.

Maybe Dr Who fans simply dislike change? Which brings us back to why the Wrinklies were originally founded: to celebrate that change.

You may be onto something; wrinklies were made to embrace change (or, embrace Dr. Who in all it's forms) and there were those amongst us (perhaps) braced for it. Moffat's Who is remarkably similar to RTDs. This change in creative leader is more than ever before a tweak in style, rather than a full-on refurbishment. Season 5 seems to be an RTD season with a few more concessions to traditional Who story-telling. Even if you think negativity has gone up, it's interesting to spot a few of the more vocal critics of RTD that seem to have that "how similar is it to x's era?"-criteria, such as Mugutu, Adrian Sherlock and (the human embodiment of a chilly January morning) Michael Proctor seem to be far more impressed...

I've been having an email exchange with a certain Eocene we all know, and between us, we've identified a couple of things about Series 5 that mark it as a stamp of difference with the previous four and the '09 Specials. Before I offer these up for discussion, let me preface this by saying that the production values on Doctor Who remain exceptional. From costumes and set design to CGI and special effects, the show just looks amazing- a true visual feast for the eyes.

And while I've enjoyed parts of Series 5 as much as I've enjoyed much of what came out of the RTD era, there are some points of difference that I (and my Eocene correspondent) question:

- Lack of family connection. One thing RTD did consistently was give us companions to the Doctor that had familial connections to present day Earth. Other than Rory, we had no familial connections to Amy. There was no Jackie Tyler or Wilf. That family tie served an important purpose: it increased the stakes for the Doctor in as much as it gave the audience identifiable reference points to the here and now, as one monster after another threatened to disrupt those lives. In contrast, none of the villagers we met in Eleventh Hour have made a return- even when we popped back to visit Rory at his bachelor party. We never met Amy's aunt. We haven't actually returned to that village in which Amy grew up. The result is that we have a harder time identifying with Amy.

- New production crew. Not returning this year are any of the directors whose styles we've become familiar with (Graeme Harper, James Strong, Euros Lynn, Colin Teague, et al). New directors put a new creative stamp on the production, and the result is a different feel to the stories.

- The "Anti-Captain Jack" as companion. Rory is the antithesis of Captain Jack. Whereas Captain Jack was loud and full of cocky self-assuredness, Rory is tentative and self-deprecating. There's nothing particularly wrong with his characterization, but at times, it makes Rory a bit hard to sympathize with.

Now, these are all creative decisions the Moff has every right to make about the show. But in making them, he's done what JNT did with the start of Season 18: he's put his own signature to the production and marked it in contrast to what we've seen previously. Lee is correct in this point: Doctor Who is a show that constantly changes, and with series 5, we've gotten changes in spades. Some of these changes may be difficult for audiences to come to terms with. That doesn't mean the show is bad, it just means its moved on, and its challenging us to come along.

I'm going to be awfully interested in seeing how Series 5 gets wrapped up with "The Big Bang," because I think there are two things we haven't yet gotten answered: 1) how did a jacketed Matt Smith appear to an eyes-closed Amy in "Flesh And Stone," and what did his message mean, and 2) what did the date on Rory's hospital badge (indicating he'd been employed at the hospital since 1991) we briefly saw "The Eleventh Hour" mean? Apart from the immediate peril of the cliffhanger "Pandorica Opens" left on, those are two potentially provocative dangling threads.

My mistake. It is change wrinklies don't like

Have to say I don't have a problem with the reduction in familial connections. If there's one single thing that is starting to annoy me, it's the near total lack of alien planets.

Really, REALLY want them for Series 6.

I'm not bothered with the reduction in familial connections. And I like Rory's general rubbishness. He reminds me of me. (Only I'm not a nurse.)

Lee Carey wrote:[F]or me this series is as much Doctor Who, and as thought provoking, entertaining and surprising as the previous five years output. There's probably the same ratio of stories I've disliked and those I've loved (although dislike maybe the wrong word: I still don't think any story shown since 2005 has actually been bad, especially in terms of Timelash bad, but I've enjoyed some stories more than others), and the casting of Smith has reinvigorated the show.

I'd agree that this series is as much Doctor Who as the previous five years - in fact, I don't really think it's very different at all (at least not in any significant way). It certainly 'feels' the same to me.

And I think it's been a really solid series - I've probably enjoyed more of it more than any 'new' series apart from the third. I don't think there's been a really Whoa!-ey stand-out episode this year, though - there's been a bunch of really good ones, but no 'Human Nature' or 'Girl in the Fireplace'. And my dislike of and disappointment in 'The Beast Below' and 'Victory of the Daleks' just serves to make me enjoy 'Amy's Choice' and 'The Lodger' all the more.

And Smith is absolutely brilliant (as I confidently predicted he would be on the strength of Party Animals alone). Still hate the new Daleks, mind, so maybe I'm not as pro-change as I would like to think (or am I just not pro-bad-change)?

Patrick wrote:[Moffat]'s done what JNT did with the start of Season 18: he's put his own signature to the production and marked it in contrast to what we've seen previously...

If you want to see negativity and rampant anti-change rhetoric, just mention season 18 to the eight-year-old me...

The Co=Ordinator wrote:If there's one single thing that is starting to annoy me, it's the near total lack of alien planets...

Not enough alien planets? No change there at least, then!

Lucy McGough wrote:I like Rory's general rubbishness. He reminds me of me. (Only I'm not a nurse.)

No, you're a policewoman...

*waves "hooray for Doctor Who flag* Less than 24 hours to goooooo!

stanmore wrote:My mistake. It is change wrinklies don't like

somehow I find it hard to imagine wrinklies saying -- "Keep the change" -- tho I could be wrong - after all, DF does have a job

( )

The Co=Ordinator wrote:The big problem I have is that peope don't contribute sufficiently to this forum, and that is a betrayal of Wrinklydom itself.

Yes, that's true. For shame all you people who rarely post here.

Graymalkin wrote:No, you're a policewoman...

I thought she was a kissogram.

Hacky wrote:Yes, that's true. For shame all you people who rarely post here.

I demand to see more of you avatar Mike!!!

Hacky wrote:

The Co=Ordinator wrote:The big problem I have is that people don't contribute sufficiently to this forum, and that is a betrayal of Wrinklydom itself.

Yes, that's true. For shame all you people who rarely post here.

I was going to reply politely to this last page or two, but this... this... it's not hand-wringing any more. So...

You both really need to stuff that guilt trip back down your gullets.

*I* haven't been posting because I've felt this place has had too much pressure to conform lately. It's all expressed very politely and minority opinions are mostly just ignored, but it remains.

The pressure I see is for a geek-driven, detail-focused appreciation. Focus on Dalek casings over relationships. Sonic screwdrivers over squee. I don't diss the sonic, but get annoyed when the return of gadgets becomes a rallying point about the departure of RTD...

And I have been watching Doctor Who since it was available here (ca. 1978), so don't call me a Nu-Who come-lately fan--but I think the current series has had huge gaps of action and F/X where there could have been chunks of the sort of heart RTD/Gardner brought and that Moffat *can* write (but hasn't much this year, and certainly hasn't overseen that as exec).

- I was really annoyed to find out that the scene talking about Rory in Hungry Earth was cut for the sake of the monster plot. Its absence made the abbreviated death/grief scene that much more clumsy for me. I am withholding judgement on Amy's mostly unremarked orphan status in case its cause/effect is resolved tomorrow, but ???

- On that, the "need" to watch to the end of a series (folks say this is like "Lost", which I didn't watch) is also not to my liking. (Didn't much like that aspect of Babylon 5, though at least it had plenty of proper stories within the arc.) I like series arcs as building bonus value for the year's finale and allowing breathing room for a larger story. Or (as Russell seemed to do) a sprinkling of seeds that might be used for a big idea, but were otherwise just weird extra-shiny bits in an episode. The leaving of great gaping unexplained chunks that hinder the comprehension, the holding back of answer stuff we 'must' wait for over the whole series/season--that's not giving me any joy.

Eleventh Hour, possibly Beast Below, Vincent, maybe Lodger, and 5 minutes apiece of Amy's Choice and Pandorica Opens give me some content that reminds me of how people actually feel and care about each other. (In a convincing dramatic way I mean.) The rest... as some other folks have said here and elsewhere--IMO we don't have enough relationships--family or romantic (as usually mentioned) or even proper friends at home. Wouldn't Amy have had a hen party while Rory was at the stag? We've never heard about any of her girlfriends/mates, have we? Even folks who are outsiders have a *few* friends... The most obvious gadget - phones - haven't been used for anything normal by the principals since Eleventh Hour. Amy calls no one, but she's Leadworth's kiss-o-gram, a freelance business that must depend on a phone network of acquaintances. Y'know?

So yes, I'm still watching, I still enjoy the show. But not as much this year. Moffat's Who has gone back to some old-fashioned ways of presenting the show (including eccentric-Doctor and romance-low-almost-everybody, plus sometimes unsatisfactorily low-consequence gore and violence) that... yes, apparently they make 8-year-old geekBOY Moffat happy, but they don't get me in the heart. Heart is where New Who was most of all working for me, and I'm missing that this year.

So... so as not to complain, and to give the new team a proper run, I've held back a bit. It doesn't mean I'm in silent agreement. Or even on the same page. And as y'all know, I never can stand y'all's ranking and rating, so I'm not going there. But that doesn't mean anybody has the right to nag and harangue and class others as not-we for not making statements.

For what it's worth, I don't think it's a guilt trip. It is a fact that people seem to be posting here less. And this probably isn't the thread in which t solve it.

Remember everyone, we are all friends here. There is no need to 'conform' and you can express any opinion that you like. I believe that generally, Wrinklies felt let down by The End of Time for example, however there were those that loved it.

You're free to post whatever you like here (as far as it conforms to the wrinkly creed, which has been in place from the first week of this forums existence) and you wont be set upon as you may be on other forums.

Warped-- many thanks for the considerate reply. Oddly enough being one of the 'hand wringers' this is the sort of criticism I enjoy reading: you identify weaknesses in the writing that don't simply come down to "Oh, it's a Chibnall script," and you point out what you feel are flaws without saying this is s***, and leaving it at that.

Sorry I've derailed the thread, and that you've not been enjoying the forum as much. As Stanmore suggested, maybe it is down to this now being a forum instead of one thread on another board, and that sense of refuge and camaraderie is missing.

There just isn't the critical mass to maintain forward momentum... too many little splinter forums have created niche markets. This is the only DW related forum I frequent now - mostly because I know the hype and bs that goes on at bigger places, that's what you get when you have more than enough active members.

The Wrinklies are a great bunch to have a chat with take a breather from the bigger forums, but ultimately we're the little shop trying to operate like a supermarket chain (this is simply the nature of forum life). So of course we are going to find it difficult to maintain the same level of intensity as we did in the Wrinkly threads on OG.

Big picture: after tonight, activity will begin wind down until a couple of weeks before Christmas, a Wrinkly thread exists on GB - perhaps this is a good time to revive it.

Johnstone McGuckian wrote:Remember everyone, we are all friends here. There is no need to 'conform' and you can express any opinion that you like. I believe that generally, Wrinklies felt let down by The End of Time for example, however there were those that loved it.

Did we generally believe that?I must have missed that memo - for it was much better than anything we've had since!

Maybe we'd have fewer arguments if we just didn't talk about Doctor Who.

Rich Flair wrote:

Johnstone McGuckian wrote:Remember everyone, we are all friends here. There is no need to 'conform' and you can express any opinion that you like. I believe that generally, Wrinklies felt let down by The End of Time for example, however there were those that loved it.

Did we generally believe that?I must have missed that memo - for it was much better than anything we've had since!

From what I remember it was generally rated lower then the average. Could be wrong.

warped wrote:

Hacky wrote:

The Co=Ordinator wrote:The big problem I have is that people don't contribute sufficiently to this forum, and that is a betrayal of Wrinklydom itself.

Yes, that's true. For shame all you people who rarely post here.

I was going to reply politely to this last page or two, but this... this... it's not hand-wringing any more. So...

You both really need to stuff that guilt trip back down your gullets.

I was only trying to guilt-trip myself with my grand total of 13 posts, counting this one, since 2008.

The Co=Ordinator wrote:

Hacky wrote:Yes, that's true. For shame all you people who rarely post here.

I demand to see more of you avatar Mike!!!

It does have a certain appeal that the one over on GB lacks, doesn't it?